What can you do? It's crazy people

Crazy people will do crazy things…and if you take away one tool, they’ll simply find another tool…or so the argument goes, I think.

Germany, pop 84M

“massacre” victims in 2022: 0

UK, pop 67M

“massacre” victims in 2022: 0

France, pop 65M

“massacre” victims in 2022: 0

Spain, pop 47M

“massacre” victims in 2022: 0

Italy, pop 60M

“massacre” victims in 2022: 0

Total population: 323M
“massacre” victims in 2022 cumulative total: 0

Now, it’s wiki, so a grain of salt is required. “massacre” isn’t defined, but they seem to list events with as few deaths as 3. And of course, all the usual caveats of correlation not being causation.

US, pop 332M

Deaths up to May 25: more than 340 by my count.

Who knows, maybe there are just way more crazy people.

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And more guns. Not to deliberately avoid your point – I have no problem with calling these shootings massacres – but the massacres of old were never perpetrated by lone, mentally disturbed young men wiping out a classroom full of kids with a firearm he has no business owning. That sort of thing just wasn’t possible a hundred years ago, so a ‘mass shooting’ is a somewhat different thing. And an American specialty, not that there haven’t been mass shootings elsewhere. I believe the world record is still held by that Breivik person in Norway.

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Nah, that can’t possibly have anything to do with it :wink:

I actually wanted to compare like with like, but search of “mass shootings 2022” in all those other countries got me nothing.

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“Alcohol is a significant cause of death in the U.S. According to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), more than 95,000 people die every year due to alcohol-related causes. That’s an average of 261 deaths per day.3 NIAAA reports that alcohol-related deaths are on the rise. The most recent statistics from NIAAA indicate that alcohol-related deaths increased from 35,914 in 1999 to 72,558 in 2017.4”

Alcoholism Statistics & Alcohol Abuse Demographics.

AND DON’T TELL ME AS A CONSTITUTIONAL LAWYER THAT THE STATES CAN’T PASS A LAW…”

The Dershow (Alan Dershowitz), on point as always…

https://youtu.be/ziLOlw-QiDY

That’s true. The difference is it probably more often affects the person doing the drinking. Your drinking doesn’t impact me, and choices have consequences (admittedly I am oversimplifying by not accounting for the addiction aspect).

But presumably, alcoholism is not a unique problem here…

https://worldpopulationreview.com/country-rankings/alcoholism-by-country

I must say I was surprised by this. It’s roughly 2X that of France, UK, and Germany, and much higher than Spain and Italy (to keep to the countries I compared initially). But neither is this an either-or issue. If you want to make a case against alcohol, you can. And it won’t affect the gun issue one way or another.

There is also the issue of drunk driving, where it often is someone else who gets affected; and I don’t have the numbers for that.

And the extension of that of course is MVAs, and so the rhetorical question always goes to “gosh should we should restrict cars too?!?”. However, those are “accidents”, whereas mass shootings are decidedly not.

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Exactly. Mass shootings are a deliberate effort to kill by a lunatic. The person that commits the crime is guilty of its execution. The availability of the weapon does not hasten the occurrence of the crime. America is a violent country. But I would suggest that not a single, law-abiding, American gun owner has ever committed mass murder.

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My mother owns five guns. That doesn’t impact you either. Incidentally, I own zero guns because I live in China. No one owns guns here. And the cities are incredibly safe. And you don’t have to compromise much… except a bit of liberty, the right to vote, the right to express yourself, etc., etc.

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I would agree. But while it may not hasten it, I’d argue it facilitates it. Or at a minimum, it does give a crazy person a greater reach, compared to just about any other “tool” you could use to carry out the crazy. I believe in China, machetes are the go-to for crazy people, and it’s just not as efficient.

And again, it’s correlation, but is there substantially less crazy in those Euro countries I compared to? Or is it because their crazies can’t avail themselves to the same smorgasbord of tools?

And I would say, in this realm, the tool is literally and figuratively the accessory.

Until he or she stops being law-abiding. Like Salvadore Ramos.

(not meaning to suggest anything about your mother)…but whether she drinks or not doesn’t impact me, but whether she remains mentally well or not, might.

But as I’ve shown, you don’t need to live in a communist/authoritarian country to avoid having 350 mass shooting deaths in the first 5 months of this year.

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Never heard of drunk driving? Not everyone who drinks drink drives, but equally nobody who doesn’t does. Also it’s a fiction that the UK doesn’t have legal gun ownership, the true number lies in the hundreds of thousands. Plus, we need to consider Canada as an ‘apples’ to ‘apples’ comparison. 15.5% of the population owns a gun in Canada- in the US this figure is 42%. However, both of these figures are wildly out-of-date- the Canadian figure relating to 2005 vs. 2017 for America- it’s very likely both are now much higher.

You need to look deeper for solutions. There are a small number of proposals which have almost universal support, but nobody wants to pass because they are holding out for more comprehensive restrictions. They might help prevent as many as 20% of all school shootings. Also, although there are some rather extreme solutions about arming teachers and installing police officers in schools, there can be little doubt that most schools could radically improve their school security with only a modicum of minor investments, and little to no manpower increases.

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Democrats would shit themselves if meaningful gun reform actually passed. Much like the way Republicans are less than happy about Roe because they lose a campaign plank, Dems want guns to permanently remain in play so they can use it as an electoral cudgel every cycle.

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And so your solution is? This is a nonsensical point. It holds true for all criminal activity. Men are not born rapists, some of them become rapists when they rape… Guns are indeed an American problem. I’ll grant you that. And actually, I support a complete, 100% ban on ALL GUNS of ALL TYPES in the United States and across the entire planet… if and only if, I get to have them. Once I am in charge, then the rest of you people can disarm as you please… that seems only fair. I am always happy for others to surrender their rights and privileges just as long as mine are secured.

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That’s silly and you are not a silly person.

No, because once they commit mass murder they aren’t law-abiding anymore are they?

Sorry, if there is one thing Xi is not, it is crazy.

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To prove the or disprove the accuracy of this argument you really should use the statistics for all homicides, not just firearms. If you look at a list of countries by their homicide rate you can see that the US…

… still really sucks.

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I’m not sure if it’s merely one of those BS memes, but someone said that if you subtract the four worst cities – all run by Rats – the US murder rate is among the best in the world. Still, the mass shootings are in a category of their own and I dare say that S is correct and I’d bet that there are more mass shootings in the US than in the rest of the world combined.

Oh, and as in immigration disliker, I note that the worst countries are just those who are now repopulating the US and who will doubtless remake it in their own image.

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No, there is nothing BS about it. Although as an American I think it is wrong to lay the blame on just the Democrats, as opposed to America, for these issues. However you are correct, the violence is far higher than just looking at “homicides” or “mass shootings” would have you believe.

For example, look at the crime statistics for just Chicago. And rather than cherry pick, lets just use last weeks stats alone.

Chicago May 16th-22nd. (CompStat)
Shootings: 51 (year to date: 899!!!)
Murders: 11 (year to date: 219)

Deaths tolls comparable to any particular mass shooting happen on a weekly basis in quite a few major American cities. There is obviously a problem here that needs some serious solutions.

If I can get some time a bit later, I will try to assemble a post about what I feel the problems, and the solutions, are.

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I’ll look forward to that. But it starts with the true facts does it not? You can pick your facts to suit your narrative no matter what it is. Those unvarnished numbers from Chicago are sobering. In Vancouver, any murder makes the news. Still, a mass shooting is about more than an accountant’s view of the thing – it’s more than grand totals, those school massacres are horrifying quite beyond their dry statistical significance.

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Like any other issue, homicide can and should be broken down into it’s component groupings, each of which will have different causes and different potential solutions.

My initial, unscientific first glance of those groupings would include 1) very high murder rates in (mostly Democratic Party controlled, with correspondingly high gun control) urban centers, 2) mass shootings by psychotic / enraged young men with easy access to legal firearms, and 3) murders within domestic relationships, 4) a bunch of smaller groups.

Each has different characteristics, each requires a different approach.

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Yes, I believe that is a large part of the problem with the issue.

It is trivial to compare the total amount of guns American’s have to the total amount of gun crime and see a strong correlation. In which case, gun ownership is clearly a problem.

It is also trivial to check and find that Sweden, Norway, Switzerland, and Finland are some of the safest countries in the world but also have some of the largest gun ownership by household. In which case, gun ownership is clearly not the problem.

Either side can be defended in good faith which makes finding the middle ground very difficult.

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But, just as the lightbulb has to want to change, so the seeker after facts has to want to find the truth behind them not just defend his entrenched view.

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